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 Post subject: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:28 am 
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I was contemplating converting my tubed wheel set to tubeless using "Stan's Standard/UST Tubeless System".
Anyone out there use this system or similar products. Pros/ Cons, Likes/Dislikes, advice... Thanks 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:58 am 
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Tubeless is the way to go. And using one of Stan's kits is the best way to get there if you do not have UST rims. Tubeless is more durable(with the right tires), faster rolling, and has better traction.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:21 am 
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John
The more reading online I've done has made me curious. Does it make more sense to shell out a "few" more clams for UST rims and sleep well at night knowing you have a more solid set up, or is the DIY style better? The concern I have with the DIY Stan's way (from what I've read now on line) is that they seem to be slightly more prone on leaking?


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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:02 pm 
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Go tubelss and you will thank yourself. I have both setups, a tubless wheelset with regular tires, and a wheelset with full Stan's kit.

Ever since I have gone the Stan's way, I have only had a cut of about 1/4" casued by glass on road that needed some attention, but other than that, I have never had any flats. Goat heads, ........ You will be safe.

On that 1/4" cut, Uncle Milt super glued it and I was on my way back to the starting point. I just lost a bit of Stan's juice.

I hope this helps you.

Ali



Jimmy Snooka wrote:
John
The more reading online I've done has made me curious. Does it make more sense to shell out a "few" more clams for UST rims and sleep well at night knowing you have a more solid set up, or is the DIY style better? The concern I have with the DIY Stan's way (from what I've read now on line) is that they seem to be slightly more prone on leaking?

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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:08 pm 
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Ali,
If you had to choose one way to go tubeless, would you take DIY route or get two new rims?


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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:22 pm 
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Instead of buying new rims, just use some Stan's strips on what you got. As far as the leaking goes, as long as you put everything together just like Stan says you won't have to worry about it. Also, if you use UST tires(I suggest 2.35 Kenda Nevegal DTC UST's) you don't have to worry about sealing your tires. Not having a good seat between the rim and tire bead is usually the main cause of leaking and that can be avoided with a good clean install.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:04 pm 
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It depends on how old are you rims are and if you are planning to upgrade to tubeless and get a new wheelset at the same time.

If you are happy with your wheels, just get a kit ( $55 to $75 ) depending on the width of your wheels and follow the instruction on the kit. Uncle Milt of Bontia Bikers sells them and I have his number if you want.

There are a few things I would strongly recommend to mount the tire right and the first time is to use compressed air and not a bicycle pump. You need large volume of air into your tire to let it sit right a way, but before that, make sure you have it all foamed as explained in the kit instructions.

Also, remember to add more fluid if you keep your bike in a hot garage as it dries fast in warmer / hotter temperature.

Good luck. Ask any questinos or bring it down, we can give you a hand to do it for you.

Ali



Jimmy Snooka wrote:
Ali,
If you had to choose one way to go tubeless, would you take DIY route or get two new rims?

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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:24 pm 
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I personally use Stan's rims but you can go the "ghetto" route as they say with the rim strip -- there's some good how to's on Notubes.com. It varies with tire size and how much pressure you run. On the safe side, run a little more pressure than you normally run to make sure the tires seat tight as well as reduce the chances of burping the tire over obstacles. Hitting anything huge won't matter if you're running tubes or no tubes, you're going to have a flat.

Running tubeless has been the coolest sensation because your wheels feel more lively. I think this is true because tubes add another layer of absorption, so you have less feel. I prefer it, I can actually feel my tires when they are about to lose grip and I can compensate for it -- or it's possible that the tire flexes and conforms better over objects that you actually get better traction.

I currently run Kenda Nevegal DTC 2.1s on F/R which have been the best tires for agressive XC riding with some jumps and drops thrown in. In the past, I've used Maxxis Larsen TT's, which are super light, but not great in loose sandy dirt and rocks. I switched to WTB Weirwolfs 2.3s and wasted my money. I hate the squarish profile which I thought would be a benefit to bite to the loose stuff but turns out because of the tread pattern, they are squirly as heck. FWIW they did climb well in the loose stuff, but I'm not big on doing climbs all day.

Go Tubeless... you won't regret it.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:55 pm 
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FYI: "Ghetto" tubeless is when you take a smaller tube than the rim/tire is used for and use that as your rim strip. Basically you put the tube around the rim with the valve through the valve hole, then split the tube with a razor all the way around the rim and letting "flaps" hang over the edge. You then install the tire(which can be a bitch) and sealant, so you have the tire installed and a strip of tube sticking out from between the rim and tire. Now inflate tire ensuring everything seats good and then trim off the strip of tube.

Stan's rim strips far exceed this method in almost every way. Later.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:59 am 
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jonathan_sykes81 wrote:
Instead of buying new rims, just use some Stan's strips on what you got. As far as the leaking goes, as long as you put everything together just like Stan says you won't have to worry about it. Also, if you use UST tires(I suggest 2.35 Kenda Nevegal DTC UST's) you don't have to worry about sealing your tires. Not having a good seat between the rim and tire bead is usually the main cause of leaking and that can be avoided with a good clean install.



+1 This is my setup & tire.

I use Stan's strips for Non-UST rims & have not flatted yet since converting. I do put a scoop & a half of Stan's in my UST tires, just because of all the cactus & thorns.

I paid $55 for the Stan's setup at www.beyondbikes.com & on Oct. 25th they are having there sale, so you will be able to convert on the cheap.

Tubeless guy who WILL NOT go back.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:31 am 
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actually i think using packing tape is the ghetto tubeless...


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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:36 am 
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This is some plaaigerizing from various sources as well as my own experience....

Tubeless
Is it for you, and which method to use?

If you are looking at this page, you probably have questions about running a tubeless system�or you�re just really bored. Because of the increased performance that lighter weight and lower tire pressures allow, many of the top pros on the DH and XC circuit are running tubeless systems, and many amateurs are getting rid of their tubes as well. Of course, the benefits of running tubeless systems don�t end on the racecourse. Tubeless set-ups allow far fewer flats because there are no tubes to pinch, and the weight saving at such a crucial point of rotating mass make a bike with tubeless tires handle as if the bike had shed pounds instead of ounces.

What follows is a listing of different tubeless systems available and the benefits and drawbacks of each system, as well as a guide to help you get started setting up your favorite bike. Whatever kind of bike you ride�whether DH, trail, or XC�tubeless systems will improve your ride by making your bike handle better in all conditions.

Different Ways to Run Tubeless
1. Tubeless Compatible Rim and Tires

Advantage: Least amount of weight used, and therefore the least amount of rotating mass.
Disadvantage: If you do not currently have tubeless compatible rims, you will have to buy them.
2. Rim Strips with Latex and Tubeless Tires

Advantage: Rim strips from Maxxis cost $5, Stans latex tire sealant costs $15 for a quart, which will fill at least 20 tires.
Disadvantage: More weight than running tubeless rims, and it can take a bit of work to get the tire and rim strip to cede correctly with a given rim.

3. �Ghetto�

That�s right. Ghetto. This is how the kids in the hood do it.

Basically, instead of rim strips, you use 20� BMX tubes cut at the seam and stretch it around your rim.

Advantage: None over the rim strip method, except that you can run schrader valves, whereas the current rim strips on the market only come with presta valves. And if you�re into the whole urban-poverty thing, then you get to say that you have a �ghetto� set-up.
Disadvantage: Far more complicated mounting onto a rim, and the most 20� tubes actually weigh more than rim strips.

Why go tubeless
1. Less rotating mass.

Instead of reading a physics paper on the benefits of bike handling by reducing rotational mass, simply run this experiment. First take a wheel without a tire mounted to it and spin it your arms. Now try moving the axle while the wheel is in spin. Next, mount a tire and tube to the rim, inflate the tube inside the tire, and run the same experiment. You will notice that is far more difficult to move the wheel out of its intended path. Physics dorks call this inertia (I think), and it is the main reason to try to drop as much weight as possible at the points where your bike is rotating most (wheels, tires, cranks, pedals, etc.). Basically, dropping weight in your tires has more effect on rotating mass than anywhere else on your bike, since they rotate more than anything else on your bike. Thus, running tubeless makes your bike corner more nimbly because you can change direction with less effort.

Numbers:

Typical DH Tire: 1300g (2.86lbs.)
Heavy Duty DH Tube: 455g (1lb.)

Total: 1755g (3.86lbs.)

Typical DH Tire: 1300g (2.86lbs.)
Maxxis Rim Strip: 130g (0.29lb.)

Total: 1430g (3.15lbs)

Breakdown:

Full tubeless weight savings over tubed tires: 455g (1lb.)

Rim strip weight savings over tubed tires: 325g (0.72lb.)

2. Lower tire pressures.

Many beginner riders run extremely high tire pressures (40-50psi) in order to avoid pinch flats, and while this certainly helps avoid the snake bites, it also hinders the handling of your bike. Running high pressures does not allow your tire�s rubber to wrap around rocks, or grab on to the trail under cornering forces. Basically, your tires will handle roughly going straight, and will slide out easily in any corner.

3. No more pinch flats.

Anyone who has been riding bikes for more than a month has probably experienced a pinch flat. As we mentioned above, many beginner riders who pinch flat will run ridiculously high pressures to avoid pinching tubes, sacrificing handling in doing so. Since tubeless systems have no tube to pinch, those who run tubeless encounter far fewer flats in general, pinch or otherwise. As long as you run proper tire pressures, and replace your tires before the tire side wall weakens, you may never encounter a flat on the trail again.

Why stay with tubes
1. Requires compressed air.

Trying to mount a tubeless system onto a rim without compressed air is a great upper body workout. Your heart rate will sky rocket, your abs, chest, and tricepts will get huge, but you will never inflate those tires.

2. May require the purchase of new parts.

As we stated earlier, the most effective tubeless system combines a tubeless rim and tire. Tubeless rims usually cost around $80-100, and must be built onto your old hubs. You can also purchase a whole new wheel set with tubeless rims, and these will usually run you more than $600.

Even running tubeless without a tubeless compatible rim will require that you purchase tubeless tires and rim strips. This is far less expensive, but it is still an investment in money and time.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:20 am 
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You are a vast wealth of knowledge RHS. Thank you for droping a little science on me.


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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:51 am 
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I tried ghetto tubeless & well it was ghetto.I took it off after one ride, was burping too much, kicked for the No Tube (Stan's)Tubeless System & have never looked back.

Check here on No tubes website to make sure you get the right rim strip http://www.notubes.com/support_selecting.php

Then go get the proper Tubeless System Kit http://www.notubes.com/tubeless_system.php?cPath=21_58

Make sure the prices of the system are the same as the MSRP here on No Tubes, & see if maybe you could get a little discount.

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 Post subject: Re: Tubed to Tube-less
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:48 am 
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So lets say you somehow do get a flat with tubeless, you can put a tube in there and ride back to the car right? and then use the air compressor when you get back? Basically, I am concerned about going tubless because of the rare chance I get do get a flat in the middle of nowhere, I dont want to have to walk it back? So in essence im asking how hard it is to fix a tubeless flat on the trail?

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