It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:51 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:16 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:33 pm
Posts: 2972
Given: 2267 thanks
Received: 3301 thanks
Bike(s): a sx'y one
Favorite Trails: the one to the taco stand
jjthewhale wrote:
Everyone involved agrees that the entire pack during those years was doping. They all were on almost the exact same program with the same doctor. So, given the even playing field, Lance to me is still a champion.

They wont re-assign the Yellow jersey to anyone else for those 7 years because they were all guilty.

His pussy teammates throwing him under the bus were just as guilty and got rich themselves over their careers thanks to their time with Lance. These ex teammates of Lance are pathetic.


is that right? they won't reassign the yellow jersey for 7 yrs?

as you said, i think the playing field was at least somewhat level with everyone playing a cat and mouse game. i don't know anything about doping but it won't make a champion out of a couch potato, but type of drug (epo, etc) dosage, regime, etc may give an advantage to the team with the better goods and experience. and yes, it's all bad, ugly, disgraceful and pathetic.

but if and when they do grace other riders with the yellow for those years, who wants to bet their home countries will not pursue the aggressive policies the usada did. here is where the uneven playing field resides. and unless that playing field is leveled, the ideal of getting drugs out of the sport will remain a pipe dream, imho.

_________________
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy. ~Milan Kundera


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:27 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 5442
Given: 14906 thanks
Received: 5738 thanks
Bike(s): Marin Rift Zone 3; Budget SS
Favorite Trails: Cuyamaca; Fanita Ranch
If you read the entire USADA report (I know; I'm a dork) you come away with the feeling that not everybody doped (as everyone on the boards likes to say) but certainly all the people vying for the podium and the key members on their teams did. To me, that's what's so odious about this -- some people tried to race clean and realized that if they wanted to reach the pinnacle of their sport they had to cheat. Guys like Dave Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde were recruited to the USPS team because of their enormous raw natural talent and then were gradually brought into the doping program. By all accounts, the Garmin team truly is racing clean and they enjoyed great success at the last TdF -- let's hope that becomes the new paradigm in bike racing.

_________________
A bicycle is a splendid thing.
~Ernest Hemingway


Top
 Profile  
 
The following user would like to thank Canaan for his or her post:
Slowgrind
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:51 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:33 pm
Posts: 2972
Given: 2267 thanks
Received: 3301 thanks
Bike(s): a sx'y one
Favorite Trails: the one to the taco stand
but wouldn't it still seem to create an asymmetric playing field if only one country is utilizing very aggressive and expensive techniques to pursue this?

but i don't know, does the usada monitor all riders of the tdf? have they targeted anyone else? certainly the news they've created is centered on progressive policies and litigation targeting armstrong.

as per cat and mouse games, i was thinking of the festina team's doping incident. interestingly, the tour was largely sponsored by festina and their ads continued to run even though their team was disqualified. the domino effect of that incident i think was an admirable way of dealing with this situation, which differs from the usada's methodology in this case.


i do want to see an end to doping, and i hope the garmin team, as per canaan, is the new wave. my objection is that the methodology utilized by usada. my question is, is their methodology an effective way to dismantle the doping framework, or is it rather an effective way for the usada to make a name for itself to justify its own existence?

_________________
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy. ~Milan Kundera


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:30 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:56 pm
Posts: 7789
Location: Vista
Given: 23228 thanks
Received: 17283 thanks
Bike(s): Yes
Favorite Trails: crooked & winding...
jSatch wrote:
...i do want to see an end to doping, and i hope the garmin team, as per canaan, is the new wave. my objection is that the methodology utilized by usada. my question is, is their methodology an effective way to dismantle the doping framework, or is it rather an effective way for the usada to make a name for itself to justify its own existence?


...and is their methodology an effective way to spend our tax dollars?

_________________
Thus, if we are to understand the world, we should live somewhere between judgement and amazement — Alfredo Lopez Austin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:34 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 5442
Given: 14906 thanks
Received: 5738 thanks
Bike(s): Marin Rift Zone 3; Budget SS
Favorite Trails: Cuyamaca; Fanita Ranch
I don't believe that the USADA follows standards any different than the WADA (see attached link: http://www.usada.org/prohibited-list/), but maybe they are simply more aggressive in their pursuit of drug cheats than are their counterparts in other countries -- I really don't know. Even if the USADA is more aggressive in their pursuit of drug cheats, my question is "so what?" Is winning so important that we want to tolerate cheating?

_________________
A bicycle is a splendid thing.
~Ernest Hemingway


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:39 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 5442
Given: 14906 thanks
Received: 5738 thanks
Bike(s): Marin Rift Zone 3; Budget SS
Favorite Trails: Cuyamaca; Fanita Ranch
OldDogDan wrote:
jSatch wrote:
...i do want to see an end to doping, and i hope the garmin team, as per canaan, is the new wave. my objection is that the methodology utilized by usada. my question is, is their methodology an effective way to dismantle the doping framework, or is it rather an effective way for the usada to make a name for itself to justify its own existence?


...and is their methodology an effective way to spend our tax dollars?


That's a separate consideration and a whole 'nother can of worms.

_________________
A bicycle is a splendid thing.
~Ernest Hemingway


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:03 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:33 pm
Posts: 2972
Given: 2267 thanks
Received: 3301 thanks
Bike(s): a sx'y one
Favorite Trails: the one to the taco stand
Canaan wrote:
... Is winning so important that we want to tolerate cheating?


i do feel the garmin wave, as we'll call it, is the right direction and the wave of the future. i believe the doping cycle has seen it's peak years.

i just don't believe the extensive and expensive targeted methodologies utilized by the usada are effective ways to undermine the overall doping framework.

my reasoning is thus, if riders see armstrong was torn down by a rather elaborate and long term process, but the guy now given the yellow jersey (who through those 7 yrs, some may have been doping) were not, what are the odds that unless you win several international comps, and are american, that you'll get taken down? slim. so is it worth the risk? arguably yes. so what does the usada manhunt really do to cleanse the sport overall becomes an open question.

now if the sport patrols itself, and i do believe those in the inner circle know who is doing what, that may be a more effective means. that is, doping becomes so looked down upon that dopers are discredited among their peers. and with the potential of career destroying info leaks, such an approach may gain traction. i'm hopeful.

_________________
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy. ~Milan Kundera


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:49 am 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:35 pm
Posts: 3769
Location: Variable
Given: 5013 thanks
Received: 5052 thanks
Bike(s): Carbine
Favorite Trails: The Googliest
UCI stripped him of the 7 tour de ffance titles today. http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/ ... ban-102212

_________________
"We'll ride it until they pave it."

-Big Clyde

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:22 am 
Offline
Moderately Obsessed
Moderately Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:22 pm
Posts: 834
Given: 505 thanks
Received: 580 thanks
Bike(s): Turners
Favorite Trails: Any singletrack, anywhere
Lancearmstrong.com is woefully out of date. Some of it is still relevant though...

Image

_________________
"New York City is a mismanaged carnival of stupidity that is desperate for revenue and anxious to criminalize behavior once thought benign."
--Alex Baldwin, unknowingly describing his socialist utopia.


Top
 Profile  
 
The following 2 users would like to thank Slowgrind for his or her post:
Canaan, OldDogDan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:20 pm 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 5442
Given: 14906 thanks
Received: 5738 thanks
Bike(s): Marin Rift Zone 3; Budget SS
Favorite Trails: Cuyamaca; Fanita Ranch
Dang it . . . I was really hoping this guy was clean. My now-19-year-old son had his poster on his bedroom after his 3rd place TdF finish.

_________________
A bicycle is a splendid thing.
~Ernest Hemingway


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:25 pm 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:33 pm
Posts: 2972
Given: 2267 thanks
Received: 3301 thanks
Bike(s): a sx'y one
Favorite Trails: the one to the taco stand
Canaan wrote:
Dang it . . . I was really hoping this guy was clean. My now-19-year-old son had his poster on his bedroom after his 3rd place TdF finish.



"Bobby has disclosed having taken a banned substance in his past as a professional rider in the late 1990s"


"...but claimed he didn't inhale"

_________________
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy. ~Milan Kundera


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:26 pm 
Offline
Moderately Obsessed
Moderately Obsessed

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:10 am
Posts: 1107
Given: 407 thanks
Received: 610 thanks
Favorite Trails: 11111
I recommend Tyler Hamiltons book. It's fascinating for what it's worth.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:31 pm 
Offline
Moderately Obsessed
Moderately Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:22 pm
Posts: 834
Given: 505 thanks
Received: 580 thanks
Bike(s): Turners
Favorite Trails: Any singletrack, anywhere
Town to burn Lance Armstrong effigy


Image


Updated Oct 31, 2012 2:15 PM ET

LONDON (AP)

His career is in ruins and now an effigy of Lance Armstrong is about to go up in smoke.


LOOKING BACK
Lance Armstrong's career highlights may be tainted, but they're still worth remembering.

The disgraced American cyclist has been chosen as the latest celebrity to be burned in effigy during an English town's nationally famous Bonfire Night celebrations.

Edenbridge in southeast England has built a 30-foot (9-meter) model of Armstrong, who was stripped recently of his seven Tour de France titles for doping offenses.

The effigy, to be burnt Saturday, sports a sign saying ''For sale, racing bike, no longer required.''

Towns across Britain light bonfires and set off fireworks on Nov. 5 to commemorate Guy Fawkes' failed plot in 1605 to blow up Parliament.

The bonfires are traditionally topped with an effigy of Fawkes but have been decorated with contemporary figures over recent years.

_________________
"New York City is a mismanaged carnival of stupidity that is desperate for revenue and anxious to criminalize behavior once thought benign."
--Alex Baldwin, unknowingly describing his socialist utopia.


Top
 Profile  
 
The following user would like to thank Slowgrind for his or her post:
OhNooo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:19 pm 
Offline
Obsessed
Obsessed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:56 pm
Posts: 7789
Location: Vista
Given: 23228 thanks
Received: 17283 thanks
Bike(s): Yes
Favorite Trails: crooked & winding...
Pretty good confessional here by the former editor of Outside magazine, about how it feels to be a willing dupe and perpetuate the charade.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/11/how-i-enabled-the-cult-of-lance-armstrong/264430/?google_editors_picks=true

Still haven't taken off my Livestrong bracelet though...

_________________
Thus, if we are to understand the world, we should live somewhere between judgement and amazement — Alfredo Lopez Austin


Top
 Profile  
 
The following 2 users would like to thank OldDogDan for his or her post:
Canaan, Slowgrind
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group