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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:44 am 
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Inspired by Shannon's burnt out post.

I had a brain fart moment yesterday during our PCE ride while I was juggling time between boredom and frustration while waiting for our B group to catch up during our first regroup spot.

In the span of that 45 minute wait, I realized that 7 years during the DT PCE New Year's Ride, there was probably almost near zero carbon fiber parts in any of the bikes in our line up then. In stark contrast, yesterday, there were probably less than half a dozen non-carbon bikes from our group of nearly 30. Can't even begin to count how many carbon wheels, handlebars and other bits were hanging on everyone's bikes. It's amazing how much we have come along to trust and now crave this said carbon technology. The market demands carbon fiber now and manufacturers are racing to feed to consumers before the demand plateaus.

If you're familiar with PCE, you know the sand wash. It's partly hell and mind numbing boredom on two wheels. Well, an older gentleman maybe just a few hours older than Fred passed us effortlessly like we were standing still. He was wearing a full face helmet, body armor, heavy looking Foes bike with an aftermarket motor bolted on front bottom of the BB area. This was my first ever experience getting passed by an e-Bike in a real MTB trail environment. While I shrugged the incident many among my friends got bothered by this. From our train alone that got passed (not counting the bitch fest during our lunch break up at the tractor tables), I heard guys behind me cussed at this guy with a touch of witty subtleties. Dudes were pissed ahahahaha.

That eBike incident reminded me how vocal many naysayers were in the early days of carbon fiber use and from the marketing of it. Many retro geezers scoffed at the concept that it would never never catch on or even be safe. No justification in buying into it whatsoever. I too had reservations about bars and definitely cranks made of carbon. However, after riding prototypes and gotten on carbon fiber frame, my mind broadened and acceptance came quickly once production methods figured itself out. I have full trust on carbon fiber now. I won't even think twice (except for the price tag).

So! Forging ahead, like carbon fiber, would pedal assisted bikes be more tolerated and culturally accepted years from now? Fred and I could only hope while I wait for the technology to bring the weight down to around 30 lbs. The next greatest innovation may not even be bolted onto a bike - it could be rider's attitude. Just remember, Europe paved the path in enduro mountain biking and racing as a format. Does anyone remember when we all made fun of the "euro" look? Fast forward to just the last few years, we have softened this "euro" look by calling it enduro blue (or whatever neon monstrosity you wear to match your Bell Super 2 with detachable chin guard ugly ass helmet). All of the sudden, wearing a helmet with pink visor and green accents over blue is ok. The attitude has changed. Now, "across the pond," there are eBike parks, ALL trails are open to eBikes, every company had an eBike at this year's Eurobike. I'm not in hurry for the fad to catch on here in the US. One, our structure here is not conducive for that share use just yet. Two, 90% of these eBikes are still butt ugly for me t openly be ok to ride. Nonetheless, it took North America and the rest of the world nearly a decade to catch on with the enduro movement. How long will eBikes loom outside of our vacuum?

Food for thought:
Two of the strongest (lobbying) and generous (grants and donations) proponents of nation-wide improved bike access and nationwide bike advocacy are Trek and Specialized. Both have production pedal assist mountain bikes with Trek just recently introduced four models (two real mountain bikes) into the US market.

Xoxo,
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:36 pm 
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"DT Renaissance Movement"! Yes. As for e-bike riders, Mel Brooks said "We mock the thing we are to be". Still don't like 'em. But I'm not mocking them. ...Well, except for the a**holes on e-bikes.

Yesterday at Calavera I met a guy on the street, nice & friendly, who right off the bat started telling me how he was the one who built all those great jumps...but he didn't look like any of the guys with shovels I saw out there a few years ago. But he clarified that he was making all those jumps "better". Whatever. I applaud trailwork and being friendly to crusty old mountain bikers...unlike the solo enduro bro later yesterday strafing the trail...I saw him coming three times(!) and pulled over, smiled and greeted him. But he was too cool to even change his laser focus expression...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:10 pm 
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ozzer wrote:
The attitude has changed. Now, "across the pond," there are eBike parks, ALL trails are open to eBikes, every company had an eBike at this year's Eurobike. I'm not in hurry for the fad to catch on here in the US. One, our structure here is not conducive for that share use just yet. Two, 90% of these eBikes are still butt ugly for me t openly be ok to ride. Nonetheless, it took North America and the rest of the world nearly a decade to catch on with the enduro movement. How long will eBikes loom outside of our vacuum?

Food for thought:
Two of the strongest (lobbying) and generous (grants and donations) proponents of nation-wide improved bike access and nationwide bike advocacy are Trek and Specialized. Both have production pedal assist mountain bikes with Trek just recently introduced four models (two real mountain bikes) into the US market.

You guys should have buried that fucker in the desert while you had the chance! I think I saw that same guy out there last year.

Unfortunately in the US we have to deal with a lot of enviro-nazis, so the concern is that if e-bikes become a thing and people insist on riding them on singletrack regular bikes may lose access if the sierra clubbers lawyer up to keep motorized bikes (which they will conveniently lump in with regular MTBs) off the trails. We also have a lot more restrictions on trails to begin with than they do in Europe. Wilderness does not really exist over there. If Trek and Specialized can lobby to get us access to some trails in Wilderness that would be cool, but I have a feeling we are going to get fucked over so they can sell more bikes.

I don't really care about MTB fashion, but I am glad to see the goggles with half lids trend seems to be going away. :flame:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:56 pm 
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evdog wrote:
ozzer wrote:
I don't really care about MTB fashion, but I am glad to see the goggles with half lids trend seems to be going away. :flame:


Goggled up on sub 1 min XC dusty runs (and most are not even going at 'race pace')at Calavera bwahahahahahaha. Yew, enduro, bro!

The same sheeps I've seen all enduro'ed out in Calavera (and our local spots up here) are now wearing riding glasses (though some are still just as offensive like the 100% thermonuclear cum guards, I mean Race Crafts). Wearing the goggles on the back or around your neck on climbs is no longer badass anymore I guess.

I don't care much about fashion either (half lie as I finished typing that) but I care (like a lot) what I look like when I ride. If I "think" I look good, I feel good and when I feel good I ride good. Same goes with my bike and why it's always clean, well maintained and showroom ready prior to each and every ride. I have OCD.

Overall, as cyclists (roadies included and most especially), we must be one dorky bunch of rainbow skittles to look at from the outside.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:51 pm 
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I nominate Oakley Madman to replace Race Craft for da bros...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:10 pm 
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Media (advertising backed) coverage of eBikes in Europe.
https://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-revie ... -test.html

Meanwhile, evdog and DFT insists this is fun. ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:12 pm 
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I expect a big schism in US mountain biking similar to the "trad" and "sport" rock climbing conflict of the past. On the one hand, the XC/trail riders who like to be out in nature (trad); on the other the enduro bro everywhere-is-a-track mentality, which will adopt e-bike assist for more speed as you predict. Off to the side will be e-bikers who need/want them for (continued) access to trad trails due to physical limitations.

I also expect some comments about that Dakine serape motif and current politics.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:32 pm 
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evdog wrote:
so the concern is that if e-bikes become a thing and people insist on riding them on singletrack regular bikes may lose access if the sierra clubbers lawyer up to keep motorized bikes (which they will conveniently lump in with regular MTBs) off the trails.


This is my primary beef w/ e-bikes. They are indeed motorized vehicles and should be relegated to trails where that is allowed, and prevented from being allowed on trails exclusive to human power. Don't fuck up my already limited trail access!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:08 pm 
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Devil's advocate:
Ok, honestly, do many of you know exactly how "real" (i.e. purposely designed and licensed as) pedal assist bikes function? I'm not talking about the motor mounted aftermarket variety that we saw in PCE. That's simply cheating.

The thought of eBikes used to bother me like motorcyclists lane splitting while I'm choked in traffic.
However, my mind is a few millimeters more open these days (except for god-awful ugly fat bikes).

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:23 pm 
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Yeah, how they work is actually very cool and sophisticated technology. But the technical aspect of how they work doesn't make the main access issue people are raising less of a problem. In fact it makes it worse as the succubus rides among us disguised as a normal mountain bike.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:38 pm 
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That is exactly the problem. The sierra clubbers are going to argue that because e-bikes can't be distinguished easily from regular bikes that regular bikes should also be banned. That's not to say they will be successful, but when we are already having so much trouble gaining access to certain areas this will only make things a lot more difficult. Keep in mind most of the decision makers never go out on the trails, so their decision will be based on what they hear. And that will not only be stories of hikers getting run off the trails by downhill riders. But e bikes will allow that same 1% or 5% of riders to ride like total douche bags going uphill too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:46 pm 
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evdog wrote:
And that will not only be stories of hikers getting run off the trails by downhill riders. But e bikes will allow that same 1% or 5% of riders to ride like total douche bags going uphill too.


This is what I was fishing for. Knowledgeable dissection of the issue(s) we potentially face or will face here in North America.

A LOT of naysayers refuse to acknowledge the actual workings of a pedal assist bike. You know the type(s), the fuck motorcycles, fuck eBike and fuck moped buffoons. It requires just as much work in the general scheme of things than you think. There's no throttle or button to bail your ass out when you're tapped from pedaling. You can't stop a pedal stoke on a tight steep uphill switchback because the motor requires the rider to turn the cranks to assist you with the torque (regardless of the assist mode setting).

Then the tree hugger types: Trail damage from roost, skids and all that torque...ha! Ok, sure. Let's see how hard your scrawny ass could whip a 50+ lbs eBike around. Plowing people down on the descents? Not likely gonna happen more than current status quo. The motor stops working pass 20 MPH. It stops converting torque and the assist drive (belt or gear) seizes. Beyond that speed, your ass is on your own lugging that 50+ lb beast downhill.

Y'all know I'm just stirring shit up. I mean, would you rather browse through birthday greeting posts?
This place needs livening up and I just fucking volunteered to get pelted for my eBike musings
(trolling).
Just keep your minds open. Stop being mountain bike type racists. Hahahaha


Ps.
This is cheating
https://jet.com/product/detail/7fdec501 ... lsrc=aw.ds

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:18 pm 
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HA! Judging by the description and specifically the "Foes" branded bike I think I know who that was. Did it also happen to be a fatbike by chance? If so, to his defense I think he is pushing 70 if not older and has ridden that trail quite a bit with no motor. Id pop at the chance to ride that trail at 70 with a motor because my knees would pry be shot by then!

I'm fine with pedal assist, as with what Ozzer says you still have to pedal. Will we probably get chastised by the powers that be because of motorized vehicles on non-motorized trails? Probably. Its inevitable for the fight to get legal trails open in the world in which we can't build trails for x many years but then a housing development wants to go there, so sure lets do that.....

They also have plusses, take Martyn Ashton riding again with the help of a non pedal assist motorized bike. Lets be real, that was pretty cool.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:23 pm 
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I am not a racist..although it's quite possible that I am a bigot... :ninja:

And some surely want you to calm the fuck down with your ebike ranting and traitorous bullshit Ozzer (but I love it). Ha!

One problem with ebikes is that they do not conform with my outlook of what MB'ing 'should' be. And if we learned anything from the last election; all others must conform to my 'correct' way of thinking or you're just plain wrong. :lol:

...so there is that...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:25 pm 
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Oh and I finally figured out why the bell super 2 looks so bad when you put the chin bar thing on. The visor is too dam short! Now if they had two different visors for each look then it might be bearable.

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